Faith and Denial

[MANE]

Does genuine religious faith allow a person to see the world as it really is?

The world as it really is, simply is. There is no objective system from which the universe operates beyond what is. The human mind has evolved to a level of collective consciousness so that it may create concepts and operate through this illusion. That is, the illusion of consciousness. The only constant within existence is change, and it is our purpose to evolve as change carries on. We are transcendent entities. Consciousness is forced to deny the universe for what it essentially is, and create a reality of philosophies and sciences, which will consequentially lead to the realization that existence simply is, and nothing more into the fathoms of articulation. This process is a transcending sequence of paradigm shifts from which consciousness completes a circle, only to realize the end is where it began. Collective consciousness is nature’s means in reaching the final purpose of evolution. All in all, a person can only realize the nature of reality, and it cannot be articulated; therefore, through the intuitive qualities of genuine religious faith, it is possible for us to realize the most essential form of reality...or, see the world as it really is.

Any thoughts?
Do you think this leaves any room for free will -or are we fated to a will within us?

[Bull-Pup]

That made me scratch my head till I hit the bone!

Well,I will give you a thesis on that later,LoL.

But basically it will turn to a debate because I concur.

[Primos]

umm well... personally i dont belive in religion, i agree it causes a false sence of reality beause all religions are about things/people bordering on insanity. faith is bullshit, and especially the ones denieng evolution. your right its just a big circle that slightly changes each time it completes a round. I think non-religious people or scientists do see the world as it is, facts and science explain it all, and were finding more each year... there is no will inside us, were like any other creature on this earth/universe, an evolved animal. we have no fate, the world turns we live.. thats it..

[MANE]

Alright, so you say that facts define reality.
Essentially, you are placing faith in science, which seems to contradict your attitude towards faith itself.
I'll write a bit more later, but for now, could you elaborate on your position that we are able to know reality without having faith in this knowledge?

[Primos]

Its not a faith as in beliving in something that cant be proven, but a trust in it, were not in the B.C's theres no need for a religious faith for reality. beacuse this reality is given to us by facts and research, thats what i think is wrong with the religious reality, its not supported by anything, just by people who blurt out storys about someone, and the person who wrote it could have been high as fuck you know? its a false sence of reality, take the greeks for example, they belive there was like 20 gods or whatever, and they created the world.. now these were accual people but extremly overexadurated. same with natives, they belive that the wind, fire shit like that are entities, but in reality there not, its impossible for wind to be an entitie. now christian and the jewish faith, moses??? jesus??? like come-on they were there at hard times... times where its possible to go insane... they dilivered messages, good ones, they were to help, and created a false sence of reality with that, talking to a bush?? miricles??...really??... if they were real, then they were like i said before high as fuck, or just insane... the people they helped, were helped, and that haddnt been done before.. so they belived it was a miricle... like fuck it was over 2000 years ago... this reality that we have now IS real the faith is a trust and its concentrated on facts and data that disclaims the religious reality, and theres proof for this... people look towards a higher power for a "purpose" a way to live.. but this reality is here, not talking to a celing with your hands together, or pulling out a carpet in a supermall and bowing to fucking soup cans. I know some people need this false reality but its not logical, no offence to anyone here who is deeply religious, but that reality is bullshit, you need to get your head out your ass and look at the sky, look at the water, look at grass, its not religious, its not "godly" it has no purpose... its in this factual reality, which is reality...

Holy fuck, i didnt realize how much i wrote lol

[Primos]

lol dude you ganna say anything???, anyone ganna try to say different??

[MANE]

Yeah, excuse my lack of response. I've been researching other topics, and they consume most of my free time.

I don't find your argument very eloquent, and it contradicts itself in a couple ways.
To begin, trust and belief are of the same nature.

"theres no need for a religious faith for reality. beacuse this reality is given to us by facts and research, thats what i think is wrong with the religious reality, its not supported by anything, just by people who blurt out storys about someone, and the person who wrote it could have been high as fuck you know? its a false sence of reality,"

On the surface, this argument seems to present a considerable point, until the logic is dissected. These facts you speak of are relative to the paradigm from which they root. This paradigm may work for what concerns scientists at its point in time, but could present a false sense of ultimate reality.
For instance, look at Einstein's theory of relativity. It gave us a logical paradigm from which scientists could contrive facts that concerned their vision, but as time passed, visions developed, and it was no longer sufficient when applied to more recent theories such as quantum mechanics and electromagnetism.
According to Thomas Khun, science has two periods: normal science, and revolutionary science. During normal science, a general paradigm is accepted, and scientists proceed to uncover facts based off of this paradigm. Over time, 'slip-ups' and apparent miscalculations begin to arise within individual scientific research, but are looked past due to the trust, or blind acceptance of the general paradigm. This goes on until a new general paradigm is formulated, causing a period of revolutionary science, only to return to normal science.
With that said, it would be illogical to assume that because of generally accepted 'facts', religion is blasphemous in the face of ultimate reality.
In many ways, religion and science coexist, and lead to the same essential truth of reality. Through each, it is the diverse conceptions of ultimate reality, both objective and intuitive, that set a path for spiritual discovery.

[SiNiS]

science happens to be the language of creation that god spoke into existance,


structured relgion is a tool of political controll
and
Faith is the confidence your have for what you believe in.
but
spirituality is something different.
spirituality is a connection with the energy source of life. like any energy source, there are possitive and negitive sources. some people harness or tap into there spiritual side, while others might choose not to, for what some would say is, lack of faith or confidence that it even exist for them to use. they dont believe that there is a flow of life energy through everything. everything, this energy holds very molicules together. but people aren't taught this. maybee its cause this level of understanding for the power of spiritualiity is considered majestic and isn't deserving for everyone to possess. so people prepair society for the next generation to be a place that lures them away from useing there spiritual power. the only power they want you to focus on is, Physical. Spiritual energy is a driving force that could change the world when combined with physical. those who know this make sure it isn't known to insure there controll over others. those who know this and want to help others are killed, like Jesus, ghandi, martin luther king, JFK and more. there is a spiritual war going on. The Fight is for our spirirtual freedom


-2-

[Primos]

iight, k i'll reply tommorow cause i got a wicked ass headache.

[MANE]

science happens to be the language of creation that god spoke into existance,

And math is a science; numbers literally compose our universe. They guide the spirit into creation.

Your whole post is real talk. Spiritual energy has the power to guide the physical, and transcend one into enlightenment.

[Divine Write]

So are you guys basically debating over what is reality?

[Primos]

/\/\ lol yeah..
___________________________

To what MANE said:

K first off, trust and belief are in the same nature, but there different kinds, they mean different things.. like saying trust in a God or you belive in a God, different meanings...

On the surface, this argument seems to present a considerable point, until the logic is dissected. These facts you speak of are relative to the paradigm from which they root. This paradigm may work for what concerns scientists at its point in time, but could present a false sense of ultimate reality.

That was like I said at the begining, We find out more and more, year after year, if we were to say we figured out everything it would be a lie, cause there always ganna be more to find out. thats what makes humanity different. but were never going to say "There is a God", "There is spirits" cause it cant be proven, its all in your head.. even most spitit readers say its all in your head, its just the brain working like its supposed to, society needs mystery, lol or eles everyone would be like me... The reality of the religions is fake.. it doesnt make sence.. your saying my statement wasnt being illogical, but it was logical, how can you denie evolution, how can you say there isnt aliens, how is there a heaven??, where the fuck would you go? this is what a society needs, something that cant be explained, thats why theres still religion. thats why this false reality still exists. With Einteins theory, yes it was proven wrong, but thats because technology grew.. nothing to do with religion, you dont need religion, its just a seperate subject that shouldnt be put in with science because it doesnt make sence, if you belive in religions, beliving in science should be blasphomus shouldnt it???

And math is a science; numbers literally compose our universe. They guide the spirit into creation.
Your whole post is real talk. Spiritual energy has the power to guide the physical, and transcend one into enlightenment.

Its Not spiritual energy, is accual energy, like how a flower grows, how we live, so your saying that the nutrients we have, to make us move and live IS SPIRITUAL?? its the same thing as the energy that holds the particles togeter, that electrical source that can bind/produce this power for things/people/animals/plants to suvive... there is no, "enlightement" for real man, enlightenment is just clearing your head, being unsubjectable to problems.. its a function of the brain.. its not spiritual...


To SINIS:

science happens to be the language of creation that god spoke into existance,

iight, but really is there a proof for God??, If "It" was real, why would these religous groups all dissagree with science, why would people fight over this bullshit... If its a language that God spoke, why doesnt everybody follow it... because science says theres no god...

And man there is no sprits flowing around, thats like saying theres ghosts... I know theres energy around us, science has shown that, we're all just particles floating around, and the ones that clump together is the objects that we see and hear[and are us], there not "Real" in a sence, they appear in our own imagination/mind that energy is created by the things we have on earth/other planets that can support life, Evolution.. if there was no sun, no carbon, no oxygen, no other gases/sources, of energy these thing wouldnt have this energy, they wouldn't be as we see them, spirituality is like ive said before a source for mystery....

[SiNiS]

i think you might have missed my point..
the energy that brings life to all is in everything, even matter that we consider not to be 'living'. hense, it is everywhere at all times, omnipresent if you will. just like the human definition of what 'god' would be. so when i say spiritual energy, i am referring to a individuals personal energy, that would be there spirit. if they choose to use it.
when a human attempts to explain this, it is allmost allways lost in translation.

because science says theres no god...
^^ok, you must realize that even the most concrete scientifical law ever founded has been prooved wrong, then write, then wrong again. so dont base all your faith on science, especially when it is humans conducting the studies, and sense we dont have 'Aliens' here helping us (to our knowledge anyways) then science will allways correct it's self as it evolves with us.
Scientist believed for years that Space was collapsing in on itself, something to do with the big bang," what goes up must come down" -einstien, and the big bang is a concrete piece in the block of evolution.
scientist prooved there are actually particles in space that are apearing and dissapearing radomly and rapidly. This process is actually making space exspand, continually. thus disprooving that the galaxy is shrinking in on itsself and actually growing. This was prooved by einstein later prooved wrong by einstein. (space is collapseing in on self. that is what scientist believed until this was discovered. we never know the whole truth, all i know is the energy exist in everything and i am apart of that energy, there for i can be one with everything if i open my mind to understand it.
and i believe if you clear your mind like you said, its allmost effortless.
and we are all victims of lies and erased pasts, your personal energy is the only thing you can know is real. thus making your life reality.

??

[Primos]

/\/\ yeah, your life is reality.. but the science being wrong and right, i said that before, were never going to know everything. but the science and what we have and will find out is reality even if its wrong, then right then wrong again, its just the concept of evolution if you will, were evolving the earth is evolving, nothings gonna stay the same and technology is always going to grow so its imposible to know everything. but you cant place faith in religion cause its pretty much wrong its there for the soul perpose of giving a false reality, to help people, religion is a creation of humans to help humans, to have somthing to look to... Science shows us reality as we can see it at that point in time. it may be wrong but it will be shown right eventually.

when you say a persons own energy.. I understand what you saying but if you think about it we have the same energy as H2O, the same energy as oxygen, carbon, we have all this in our body and there no different from the ones in our atmosphere, and putting them together creates a whole 'life' source, but there is no 'spiritual' energy as you said, its the same for everyone, just the electrical currents in everthings brain move differently cause its electricity it cant never be the same. the electrods or whatever on every object in the unvierse dont move exatly at the same time....

[Make~Sensi*]

Reality is based on belief. If we don't believe something to be real then in actual fact it is not. You have to understand that everything we see, hear, smell, touch and know is all stored within our brain or better yet our Minds.

Everything exists through our thoughts if we didn't have these thoughts then they wouldn't exists, Call it Spiritual Enlightenment or Scientific Knowledge, It is what it is and ''what it is'' is whatever you believe it to be. I bet i have many people confused because this is very difficult to explain and truthfully is only my own line of thought based on what i believe to know.

I came to this conclusion when i thought about God and why he created Humans. My belief is that our sole purpose is to experience Earth and the universe, a creation that without us to see in our dimension would not exist and that is where the belief that God created us in his form comes from. When we see an amazing landscape and appreciate the creation God's work is noticed and therefore exists.

Reality is based on what we believe to be real.

[MANE]

The reality science proposes is no more truthful than the reality art creates.

Life, in all its vastness, is a code. Perception is the decryption.
However one may decrypt, the code has an infinite spectrum of possible translations; only the creator knows the original message.
It is unwise for one to assume they know that which they do not; In any case, catapult these claims at another for the purpose of destruction.

Consistency is illusive.
Numbers are eternal.
How will you interpret?
Create reality.

[Primos]

no one will know everything, thats obvious.. science proposes a bigger picture, explains things.. things have been proven and wont be proven wrong cause there right, there are things we cant explain but you cant say this is a higher power because we cant explain it. Now really your saying that art is no more truthful than science?? how can you say that?? art is based on science in a way, look at scenery.. showing the world as science would show it, and the other way is showing the abstract or false side of it.. its showing human imaginative... soo, the only way you can say the world isnt as science at this time shows it is if you look though it though a snakes eyes.. infa-red, or any other form of vision thats untracable to the human eye... Numbers arent eternal either, numbers were made by humans to show science... everything is science, from a calander to the light from the sun... numbers are really nothing, a form of science, you dont need numbers for the "reality" of science, cause were living in science, were living in nature which is science in the making....which once again is reality, not as art is... the molecules formed and as we see them forms our reality, a scientific reality...

[Logikal]

I'm busy doing my taxes at the moment, but I will definitely voice my opnion on this when I am done.

[Make~Sensi*]

You talk about science as if it is what makes the world go round. We invented science and all its explanations, Science is just search for the truth or just a response to the question 'Why?'. Science has always been based upon what we already knew before discovering a new theory. Number's are eternal because everything is a number, No i don't mean 1,2,3 but measurements themselves and Mathematics have always existed as long as there has been objects to measure and as far as i know there always has been always will be. Nearly all Science is speculation based upon evidence which is also speculation only it has been accepted to be proof. No i'm not attempting to say science is wrong but science for sure has it's flaws and in alot of cases can contradict itself just like having Faith or Belief in a higher being.

[Cats_Pajamas]

I'm not going to make anyone suffer through a 5 paragraph encomium.

So basically....

Science, Humanity, And Religion Are All The Same Thing.

It's all elliptical. I agree with Mane in the sense that no matter how much we fight it, we are trapped in the path of the past.

It DOESN'T MATTER what you do or say, because someone has already done something similiar, just with different names and materials.

The Universe is an equation. Time inserts different variables, and we are solved, but no matter what the variables, the answer to the equation is death.

[Primos]

k to what sensi said, i wasnt talking about science as the study you know, i mean it as nature, it is science... its growing beings, and things...
lol im done talking now.. i said what i wanted to say...

[MANE]

no matter what the variables, the answer to the equation is death.

That's a subjective answer, for out of death comes life; Our purpose is to simply exist within the process, and create subjective purpose.

The equation of life is much like a mobius strip, and the answer lies within what is created out of the process.

[Make~Sensi*]

This might throw the subject completly off....

Without death there would be no life...for something to exist it has to have a beginning and an end. Existence is the part in between, you can use anything as an example. Like Everything is the same as Nothing but something is Something. Lol...i hope at least sum1 can comprehend this.
For example if Infinity is a real thing it would have to start at zero and end with a number (who knows what)..however that contradicts the meaning of infinity and therefore infinity must be relatively the same as zero (with no beginning and no end) so this can answer a lot of unanswered questions..Like an Eternal being such as God but if it has always been here and always will be then in actual fact it has never been here.

It is the same with most things for instance if there was no cold then there would be no heat....if there was no dark there would be no light. If there is no beginning there is no end and vise versa.......

[Cats_Pajamas]

no matter what the variables, the answer to the equation is death.

That's a subjective answer, for out of death comes life; Our purpose is to simply exist within the process, and create subjective purpose.

Well, who's to say the answer to the equation in the next life isn't exactly the same. Again, it's all elliptical.

[kolya]

The reality science proposes is no more truthful than the reality art creates.

Life, in all its vastness, is a code. Perception is the decryption.
However one may decrypt, the code has an infinite spectrum of possible translations; only the creator knows the original message.
It is unwise for one to assume they know that which they do not; In any case, catapult these claims at another for the purpose of destruction.

Consistency is illusive.
Numbers are eternal.
How will you interpret?
Create reality.

The only problem with this is that many people's perceptions involve fiery, eternal torture chambers and the denial of basic human rights.

The reality ( especially organized) religion presents provides nothing for anyone but its participants.

Whereas sciences reality and accomplishments are to the benefit of all, secular or spiritual.(ie, technology, medicine, government etc)

[kolya]

This might throw the subject completly off....

Without death there would be no life...for something to exist it has to have a beginning and an end. Existence is the part in between, you can use anything as an example. Like Everything is the same as Nothing but something is Something. Lol...i hope at least sum1 can comprehend this.
For example if Infinity is a real thing it would have to start at zero and end with a number (who knows what)..however that contradicts the meaning of infinity and therefore infinity must be relatively the same as zero (with no beginning and no end) so this can answer a lot of unanswered questions..Like an Eternal being such as God but if it has always been here and always will be then in actual fact it has never been here.

It is the same with most things for instance if there was no cold then there would be no heat....if there was no dark there would be no light. If there is no beginning there is no end and vise versa.......

1st bold) if that were true, you're life has already taken place and will always be taking place, because there is no between without to bookends. So, if you haven't died yet by your argument, you don't exist (btw, I don't necessarily disagree with the time thing).
Also, if something has to have a beginning and end, what existed before the "beginning" of the universe? Nothing? Well, that's something.


And the second part of your argument builds on your incomplete assumptions in the first, so it is not valid (note I don't say untrue, idk either). But alot of religious scholars make that darkness is the abscense of light etc argument and apply it to the existence of God in relation to suffereing and free will. In addition to the first assumption, this thinking is flawed because most of the major religions believe that God is allpowerful (and hence unbound by logic, as they so often claim). And if God, spirit, consciousness, etc. isn't allpowerful, why call it God?

[kolya]

Does genuine religious faith allow a person to see the world as it really is?

The world as it really is, simply is. There is no objective system from which the universe operates beyond what is.

I think you need to define religious faith to make this connection

The human mind has evolved to a level of collective consciousness so that it may create concepts? and operate through this illusion. That is, the illusion of consciousness. The only constant within existence is change, and it is our purpose to evolve as change carries on.

That's a contradiction, as if humanity had a 'purpose'(objective), you are arguing that that purpose is constant. You might better word this by positing that the human objective is change, because that 'as change carries on' flies directly in the face of what you are arguing.

We are transcendent entities. Consciousness is forced to deny the universe (earier you effectively argued that the 'collective consciosuness' was the universe, so we are denying, or rejecting ourselves? That's a pessimistic view, and leads to the quick fix of suicide...realize hat the common negatives associated w/suicide don;t apply here, just elaborating with an outside perspective) for what it essentially is, and create a reality of philosophies and sciences,
this is a very nihilistic stance, that we must reject, or destroy, ourselves to create a new reality. Though this may work in the mind, it hasn't proven practical in the real world that is often difficult to transcend.
which will consequentially lead to the realization that existence simply is, and nothing more into the fathoms of articulation.
now this is the opposite of nihilism. that we should create a new reality to realize that existence exists has resulted in anything but (see:Greeks)

This process is a transcending sequence of paradigm shifts from which consciousness completes a circle, only to realize the end is where it began. Collective consciousness is nature’s means in reaching the final purpose of evolution. All in all, a person can only realize the nature of reality, and it cannot be articulated
i would argue that it's not a circle if you come out with some new knowledge, or realization. And again, we reach the practicality of the situation, because a system of realization intentionally and knowingly set up to arrive where it began in most cases won't be considered attractive or useful, and hence is not collective. i think i know where you're going with this...
; therefore, through the intuitive qualities of genuine religious faith, it is possible for us to realize the most essential form of reality...or, see the world as it really is.

again, you really need to define religious faith. there are of course a few questions: is genuine religious faith possible in all people? is it beneficial(to the objective) in all people?---just noticed, through that word intuitive you are arguing(or i would say assuming) that everyone contains this capability that you also assume is good. That's nice i suppose, but it is nothing more than wishful thinking. has religion, keeping in mind the sincerity issue, ever proven to articulate these realizations before ? (see: alot of people dying)

Any thoughts?
Do you think this leaves any room for free will -or are we fated to a will within us?


I guess my biggest problem with this is that we are required to sincerly believe something (that we exist) to come to the conclusion that we exist. Haven't we already reached that possibly errant conclusion?
You also assume that everyone wants to reach the fundamental reality. Where, i could guess (and even by guessing i destroy your argument, because of doubt) that at least one person is what i like to call 'limited', or stupidly satisfied.


Ultimately, i think the last paragraph especially casts alot of doubt on the traditional definition of free will. But it is important to remember that there are shades of grey, and i comletely reject the regressive idea of fate, because noone anticipates multiple universes, overlapping time, etc.



I'll get into it later, but i think that whether or not free will exists or not is irrelevant. It is important to know that if you lose yourself in despair because you don't have free will, your 'fate' has become despair. Even if this idea is an evolutionary trick, oh well, show me a mortal untricked.


Oh, rant, questions will come if anyone actually read that.

Also, my sig (the hope bit) is my basic philosphical function. Not wishful thinking, HOPE.

[MANE]

Thanks for that response man, I've been waitin' for someone to really dissect what I was tryin to say. I'm out of my element atm so i'll drop a response tomorrow probably

hope is a powerful function in itself..
Wu Wei has become my mantra..As alluded in my sig.

[MON ARK]

Try and discuss the events that take place after the world ends, both for Christians and those who don't believe.
It's very interesting because, Revelations talks about a second earth.

I will get back to this.

[Nx]

Sup all? Been goin through this thread for a while now n its da most interesting thing to come outa this phone so far (sad isnt it).The text inputs a bitch so ill short:

Your saying reality as we call it doesnt exist because its essentialy concept just like science, spirituality, and straight homos. All boils down to this perticuler state of the grand wave function.? agree with that

BTW some of you may want to look up quentem mechanics specialy duality. In a nutshell time doesnt exist. howstuffworks