View Full Version : God and shit
kolya
03-30-2008, 04:34 PM
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
-Epicurus
And don't give me that free will answer, because if God was omnipotent he would be able to create a universe in which suffering doesn't exist and free will does.
EDIT: Omnipotent=all powerful
It is not a matter of free will by any means beyond what is essential for this physical universe to manifest.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
-Epicurus
This is a rationalization, and leaves the rest of his logic up in the air. Observing a logical nature of what is, if God is able but has not prevented evil, then there must be a reason. Hence, evil is an integral part of this physical existence, and must exist for the sake of what is.
There is a seeming duality here. Two sides of the same coin allow the coin to manifest.
And so,
in order for this physical world to manifest, God allows evil to exist.
And because of this, we experience equal capacities to do either good or evil.
That is the nature of humanity, while were at it.
Although, things are only subjectively good or evil. The root of either extremity comes from selflessness and selfishness.
Anyhow,
*ramble*ramble*
at the end of the day, logic reveals nothing more than the realization that our existence is illogical.
Strip your perception of what is, and take your mind's eye to the asymptote of logic and see for yourself.
The physical universe is a vessel for conscious evolution; a constant skyward spiral of realizations that reach into the depths of what is fuel the growth that allows the spiral.
With that,
conceptually visualize a torus; the influx and radiation of information as the system refines and restructures itself in accordance to *edit* question.
The level of wonder is directly proportionate to the level of the system; this universe must have been designed to maintain conscious evolution, so we return to the realization that logic reveals nothing more than illogic.
Maybe God is the epitome of this conscious evolution.
Just some thoughts...
Cats_Pajamas
03-31-2008, 04:32 PM
Strip your perception of what is, and take your mind's eye to the asymptote of logic and see for yourself.
Why strip your perception? That's what makes up your logic and allows you to elevate. Numerous people doubt God, and understandably so, but I often think about this alot. If a pure, all-mighty, entity watching over you for your whole life is so hard to believe. Then what exactly do you believe? Surely you don't believe in the cosmic dribble that is astronomy and space exploration. In which there are billions of galaxies, white holes, pumping out matter, black wholes, absorbing matter, and millions of billions of trillions of other things. Do you honestly think that makes sense? Okay, so your retort will be, "Your feeble mind can't grasp space". My retort will be, "No, and neither can anyone elses". This retort will be accompanied with a "If you believe in space, and all it's baggage, then why is a God so hard to believe? With masses of the 30th powers, and us suposedly being .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000001 part of space, how can you honestly begin to immediatly scoff at the idea? I could go on, but who is actually reading this anyway....
Cats_Pajamas
03-31-2008, 04:35 PM
Also, MANE, you refer to the universe as a system, in order for activity, energy must be added to the system, correct? :idea:
Strip your perception of what is, and take your mind's eye to the asymptote of logic and see for yourself.
Why strip your perception? That's what makes up your logic and allows you to elevate. Numerous people doubt God, and understandably so, but I often think about this alot. If a pure, all-mighty, entity watching over you for your whole life is so hard to believe. Then what exactly do you believe? Surely you don't believe in the cosmic dribble that is astronomy and space exploration. In which there are billions of galaxies, white holes, pumping out matter, black wholes, absorbing matter, and millions of billions of trillions of other things. Do you honestly think that makes sense? Okay, so your retort will be, "Your feeble mind can't grasp space". My retort will be, "No, and neither can anyone elses". This retort will be accompanied with a "If you believe in space, and all it's baggage, then why is a God so hard to believe? With masses of the 30th powers, and us suposedly being .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000001 part of space, how can you honestly begin to immediatly scoff at the idea? I could go on, but who is actually reading this anyway....
I'll elaborate on that statement...it is missing the next step!
A refined philosophy can be achieved through a process of disassembling and reconstructing one's perception of reality. Once an essential realization is reached, one may then relearn how to walk with this new essential understanding.
So,
strip your perception, or in other words, deny all that you believe, so as to reconstruct your perception of reality. For an example, Rene Descartes denied all that he could, until he came to the realization "I think, therefore I am"...that was one aspect of his perception that he could not deny. From there, he built his philosophy on the foundation of that initial realization.
From that foundation, one may elevate to much greater and refined heights.
Cats_Pajamas
03-31-2008, 07:10 PM
Ahhh, yes, now I see. I misunderstood. That indeed is how the universe stays cyclical, as ironic as that sounds!
Also, MANE, you refer to the universe as a system, in order for activity, energy must be added to the system, correct? :idea:
That is an interesting point.
Is the universe an open or a closed system in its entirety? If it is a closed system, then it cannot change; so possibly, the universe functions under static laws that guide the open systems that do change within the closed system.
If it is an open system, then yes, energy must be added to compensate for entropy.
But either way,
both systems require an initial source!
I find the closed system theory to be inconsistent with observed patterns in nature; a fundamental structure of fractal allows the transition of open systems from universe to multiverse and globe to molecule to exist in harmony in infinitely increasing or decreasing order.
Even through the most clear and extensive logic, we consistently arrive at an essential realization; logic reveals illogic.
If we apply this realization to our human condition, it is evident that the level of our current system is inadequate to decipher that which leaves us in wonder, and only at the epitome of conscious evolution can one know GOD, for all we know is ourselves.
And so we journey.
Our system either evolves or ceases to function as an organized system (dies) when it cannot handle excess entropy.
Question is a tool that incites chaos and pushes our system to more efficient and complex heights through quantum leaps.
Freedom lies within one's ability to change.
Conscious change is a result of awareness.
Knowledge is key to awareness.
kolya
04-02-2008, 08:44 PM
It is not a matter of free will by any means beyond what is essential for this physical universe to manifest.
Elaborate, oh wise one, but i have a feeling that my response will be that necessity, or what's essential, is up to the creator.
This is a rationalization, and leaves the rest of his logic up in the air. Observing a logical nature of what is, if God is able but has not prevented evil, then there must be a reason. Hence, evil is an integral part of this physical existence, and must exist for the sake of what is.
Your taking this (ironically) in the opposite of your beloved Cartesian mehtod. Start at the base, at the creation that God created. If he is omnipotent, then no doubt that he could deny your stated reality.
There is a seeming duality here. Two sides of the same coin allow the coin to manifest.
God creates the coin, no?
Although, things are only subjectively good or evil. The root of either extremity comes from selflessness and selfishness.
Under this reasoning I could murder you, and only be guilty of selfishness. Your statements aren't necessarily untrue, but they aren't ideal. And it is important to remember that I'm not denying God, but denying the ideal God, or the idea of it.
at the end of the day, logic reveals nothing more than the realization that our existence is illogical.
Again, is the ideal? As God creates everything...etc
Strip your perception of what is, and take your mind's eye to the asymptote of logic and see for yourself.
God created what is, so any (unrealistic) attempt to "see" otherwise makes him a giant prick.
The rest was bullshit.
CATS: the same could be said for ppl who doubt the expanding nature of an infinite universe. But this proves, or says, nothing. A reasonable doubter doubts not because God is difficult to conceive, but because God (the creator) makes himself difficult to conceive. And vice versa, the only difference is the universe isn't considered personal, it is without feelings motive etc, and cant be judged. God can be. This is for some people at least, b/c I understand your logic etc., but others definitely don't, and are under threat of hell for their own reasoning, bestowed by God. (i realize some of you might not be in the organized religion crowd, but it is relevant, because, as MANE says, it is.)
Make~Sensi*
04-03-2008, 09:37 AM
Our logic can never comprehend the complexity of God.
Cats_Pajamas
04-03-2008, 05:44 PM
Kolya- Yeah, you make a very good point, the universe is like a robot version of god (in a sense) :lol: They are both pretty much the same thing, but one has feelings and the other doesn't. I wonder why so many people believe in God :roll: Don't get me wrong, after many nights of hard thought, I STILL haven't decided which way, and I think it would be premature to do so with all the new knowledge and other knowledge out there. Also, youre point about judging God is very valid, but is it wise to judge the person who (If Christianity is true) will eventually be judging you, lol.
Also, on a side note, anyone see a relationship between Heaven and The Universe?
the universe is like a robot version of god (in a sense) :lol: They are both pretty much the same thing, but one has feelings and the other doesn't.
It's interesting, that we speak of the universe as something separate from us. The fact that we are conscious and a product of ultimate reality says something about ultimate reality. How can one assume that the universe is like a robot if we are a part of the universe and are conscious?
Also, on a side note, anyone see a relationship between Heaven and The Universe?
yeah, and with that relationship, it's also interesting that we refer to the heavens as something beyond, when we are right in the midst of the 'heavens'.
I wonder why so many people believe in God :roll: Don't get me wrong, after many nights of hard thought, I STILL haven't decided which way, and I think it would be premature to do so with all the new knowledge and other knowledge out there.
I believe in GOD for reasons beyond articulation.
surprise
04-04-2008, 01:56 AM
the teleological attempt to prove God's existence is probably the most rational one. but, why do people need proof in the first place?
Make~Sensi*
04-04-2008, 08:00 AM
We don't know about God so that is the way he intended it to be. If by not believing in God you perish in pandemonium after death, Then the Lord isn't as Great as it is assumed. If for some reason he needs/wants us to believe and be worshiped by us surely it would be made clear to us through him and not through humans who expect us to believe they are a higher being because they say so.
God either exists or does not. Finding out the answer will make no difference to the universe. We all have a universe within ourselves each and every mind is a different universe because it is only there because we are here to collect the information and observe the creation, either to be praised and appreciated or to be hated and despised.
surprise
04-04-2008, 01:26 PM
If by not believing in God you perish in pandemonium after death,
That is simply how the Holy Roman Empire controlled its people and as a result Holy Roman Catholicism, and the Protestant branch-off, has kept that myth alive to this day.
If you look at Revelations 12, you will interpret that the church as we know it is and always has been under the threat and control of the devil since its founding and therefore all teachings have been perverted, as that is the goal of evil in the world. and so since evil has done such a crime and posed itself as the church, all belivers in god of all faiths have to appear before god's throne to see if you are deceptively evil or genuinely good, since evil has a tricky way of going about business... including wearing the cloth of the priest and posing as god's people.
the word omnipotent does not appear in the bible. in fact, genesis describes god as being very man-like, walking on feet, calling out "where are you?" to Adam cuz he can't immediately find the hiding first man. He then later knocks on Abraham's door with 2 other men, sit down and eat lunch, before the 2 men fly off to meet Lot in Sodom, to cast blindness on the gay heathens before the destruction of the city (very human traits of god here, and his subordinates seemed to share his same abilities). One who wields such creational and space harnessing power however, is definitely omnipotent and omniscient in comparison to you or I. everything is relative. and God, being a master of quantum mechanics, knows all about relativity.
the word omnipotent does not appear in the bible. in fact, genesis describes god as being very man-like, walking on feet, calling out "where are you?" to Adam cuz he can't immediately find the hiding first man. He then later knocks on Abraham's door with 2 other men, sit down and eat lunch, before the 2 men fly off to meet Lot in Sodom, to cast blindness on the gay heathens before the destruction of the city (very human traits of god here, and his subordinates seemed to share his same abilities). One who wields such creational and space harnessing power however, is definitely omnipotent and omniscient in comparison to you or I. everything is relative. and God, being a master of quantum mechanics, knows all about relativity.
God does state, "I am God almighty"; almighty defined as having relatively unlimited power.
The problem with setting such a limit to God, is that there is room for something even greater, such as what is described in the Tao Te Ching;
"There was something undifferentiated
and yet complete,
Which existed before heaven and earth.
Soundless and formless, it depends on nothing and does not change.
It operates everywhere and is free from danger.
It may be considered the mother of the universe.
I do not know its name; I call it Tao.
If forced to give it a name, I shall call it great." (Tao Te Ching, chapter 25)
"The Great Tao flows everywhere.
It may go left or right.
All things depend on it for life, and it does not turn away from them.
It accomplishes its task but does not claim credit for it.
It clothes and feeds all things but does not claim to be master over them." (Tao Te Ching, chapter 34)
If we can conceive of something greater than a theistic God with only relatively unlimited power, it seems as though we should focus on the way of the greater thing, for that is the ultimate source of life.
surprise
04-11-2008, 11:42 AM
yes, almightyness is a very relative concept. you are almighty over nearly anything you completely create. how much more so when the created being is of lesser dimension, such as the thoughts you conceive of outside of the Higgs field. you have brought an object into existence and you are the master of its life or death, and the judge of its worthiness.
same with the scientists who have recently created life.
The Tao te ching does describe the source from which all power flows this was explained in the new testament with jesus manifesting as a man.